Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[James Spooner]

Looking carefully at the first photo showing a Bulleid pacific, I don’t think it is Clan Line, the flag is wrong for that loco/line. I suspect Orient Line is more likely from a look at the different flags on the nameplates. I also don’t think the photo is at Waterloo as if it is looking into the station the overall roof is missing and the curve is wrong. If it is looking out then the trains would both be hanging a long way out of the platforms. I would hazard a guess at Vauxhall, with the 4SUB on the up slow line and the MN on the down fast, but that is very much a guess.

Nigel

 

[Martin Shaw]

4SUB 4742 went into service on 17/9/51 and withdrawn as a passenger unit on 6/6/83. Sent to C.F.Booth (Rotheram) for scrapping 22/4/86.
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

It’s rather difficult to put any info to this photo. I believe the loco is 35028 Clan Line but the date is not known. The absence of a smokebox numberplate and shed plate suggest it's some time towards the end of steam on the Southern and may help to date the photo if my identification of the loco is correct. Next to it is what I understand to be a 4-SUB unit, 4742 which was probably built in the early 1950s. The Merchant Navy was at Stewarts Lane from April 1950 right through to September 1964 when it moved to Weymouth Radipole, then to Nine Elms in April 1967 where it was withdrawn in July the same year. As we know this loco has had a very successful career in preservation and details are here:
35028 Clan Line

As for the 4 SUB there appears to be very little information available and I don’t even have a withdrawal date. The small yellow warning panel may also give some indication of date.

Could this be at Waterloo? If so it's a view I don't recognise.

As @James Spooner guessed it's Vauxhall.

4SUB 4742 went into service on 17/9/51 and withdrawn as a passenger unit on 6/6/83. Sent to C.F.Booth (Rotheram) for scrapping 22/4/86.

The full unit history for 4742 can be found on the Blood and Custard web site - you do have to scroll down! https://www.bloodandcustard.com/SR-4SUB.html. This is a very useful source for SR stock.

Rebuilt Battle of Britain 34056 Croydon at Waterloo but regrettably I have no date. However, looking at allocations after December 1960 when it was rebuilt it was at Exmouth Junction (where it had been since December 1954 in original condition), moving to Salisbury in November 1963 where it was withdrawn in May 1967. There's no shed plate, though, which puts the photo towards the end of steam on the Southern and I'll guess that the photo is dated at some time between 1963 and 1967. It then went to Cashmore’s, Newport and was broken up during September the same year. The SLS noted it in store at Salisbury in August 1967. (BR Database). Small yellow panel EMU in the background.

There are three EMUs in the background - looks like (from L to R) 2-Bil, 2-Hal and another 2-Bil. They are on the 'Windsor' side of Waterloo and usually formed the Waterloo - Ascot, Reading and Portsmouth stopping services.

 

[Dave Holt]

The Mn is attached to a 5250 re-bodied tender, so that might narrow it down as there weren't many of that type.
Dave.

 

[Scanlon]

My money is on 35008 Orient Line at Vauxhall. It is hauling the Farewell to Southern Steam Railtour on 2nd July 1967. 35008 ca be recognised by the 5250 re-bodied tender which it got in 1964 also the slightly inverted smokebox door fixing. The Bulleid doors were notoriously thin and could easily be warped.

 

[Heather Kay]

The first of this pair is London Transport Routemaster RM346, WLT346, of July 1960 on an unknown date and location and on the route 19 to Clapham Junction. However, in the background a telephone number of 01 251 is visible. This is the Clerkenwell exchange and the 01 became 071 in May 1990 so this photo is likely to have been taken in the 1980s and within the Clerkenwell exchange area. Furthermore there’s another bus in the background, KYV410X which is London Transport T410 which was itself introduced in January 1982 so we have an approximate ten year window for the date.

The advert for the musical Starlight Express gives a hint the photo probably dates to around 1989 or 1990. As to where it is, I can not help.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks to all who've dug me out of the Merchant Navy shaped hole. We've gone from no information to identifying the loco, the date and location. That's what I call a result! Thanks to Nigel @James Spooner , Dave @Yorkshire Dave , Dave @Dave Holt and Roger @Scanlon for chapter and verse. Further thanks to Yorkshire Dave for info on the units in the background of the West Country image and with Martin @Martin Shaw for the data about the EMU in the MN photo. Also to Heather for the confirmation info about RM346.

Waterloo at an unknown date with Merchant Navy 35004 Cunard White Star heading the Bournemouth Belle Pullmans. Although the date of the photo is unknown it must be after July 1958 when the loco was rebuilt but this photo is most likely to have been taken in the mid 1960s. It was allocated to Salisbury from 1957 until September 1964 when it moved to Bournemouth where it was withdrawn in October 1965. Apparently it was disposed of at Eastleigh MPD by Cohens which suggests that it may have been deemed unfit to be towed to a scrapyard. Such incidents are far from unknown. (BR Database)



The first three photos and possibly the final one are on 8th August 1965 and of Castle 4079, Pendennis Castle, on Southall shed and then passing with train Z40 on 8th August 1965. Details about the engine can be found here: 4079 Pendennis Castle

The reporting number Z40 was carried on a special train to Worcester Shrub Hill on 8th August 1965 – see: The Railtour Files









These photos of Flying Scotsman were taken at Southall. The special train was the Railway Magazine sponsored Welsh Mystery Flyer to Cardiff Central, Bassalleg and Bargoed of 9th October 1965 which 4472 hauled as far as Swindon and then failed. See: The Railtour Files












Brian

 

[jonte]

You like very dapper on the platform in the first photo, Brian.

Jon

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The first three of 4079 Pendennis Castle at Southall are interesting from what's in the background (yes, you've guessed it - I've no interest in the main subject ).

The first has a grubby Hymek (class 35).
The second shows one of the 3 car Pressed Steel class 117 WR diesel units.
And the third with the maroon Mk1 CK (corridor composite). What is the significance of the yellow square patch in the centre of the lower panel? Was it an early indication of first class, a military train or a special train?

 

[40057]

What is the significance of the yellow square patch in the centre of the lower panel? Was it an early indication of first class, a military train or a special train?

I think it’s a board listing calling points for the train, or showing the train name if a named service.

Similar boards were prominent on the XP64 set, though painted blue.

Martin

 

[Mike Walker]

They were widely used particularly on the WR in the late sixties and seventies until replaced by the paper window stickers.

 

[Dan Randall]

They were widely used particularly on the WR in the late sixties and seventies until replaced by the paper window stickers.

As seen here, from Sankey Scenics….

4mm / OO gauge British Rail Destination Panels | Sankey Scenics Model Signs

Model Railway Coach / Carriage Destination panels OO gauge / 4mm scale as used by the Western Region of British Rail in the late 1960s/ early 1970s.Excellent quality and value.

www.sankeyscenics.com

Regards

Dan

 

[oldravendale]

I'd noticed the Hymek and DMU, Dave @Yorkshire Dave . I just chose to not mention them. But as ever thanks for the additional info. I'd not noted that yellow patch previously though, so thanks to Martin @40057, Mike @Mike Walker and Dan @Dan Randall for educating us about them. I'd never have even recognised them previously.

National Collection GCR “Director” 506 Butler Henderson on an unknown date at the Museum which was housed in the old tram shed at Clapham. (There are more from Clapham to come). It spent some time operating on the new GCR – in fact it will appear later in this thread doing just that – until 1992 when it was returned to the NRM. It’s now on static display at Barrow Hill. While that is a superb collection I still feel that “home” should be somewhere on the new GCR, whether operating or not, and perhaps with bigger and better storage facilities after reunification some display space can be found for it. Details about the loco are at 62660 Butler Henderson (GCR 506, LNER 5506, LNER 2660 & BR 62660)



The date and location are unknown and this is clearly nothing to do with the Welsh Mystery Flier above as Flying Scotsman has the double tender in this shot.



This is a bit of an outlier but transport it most certainly is! At an unknown date a single prop SRN6 hovercraft is on the beach, almost certainly at Ryde – I remember the sandy beach. Regrettably I can’t read the registration. Hovertravel started operation in July 1965 (see About The Hovercraft | Hovertravel Isle of Wight Ferry) and note one of the much loved paddle steamers in the background of the second photo the last of which was withdrawn around 1969. This gives us a 4-year window for the date of the photo. See BHC/Saunders Roe SRN6 'Winchester' Class - James' Hovercraft Site for information about the hovercraft. Apparently, and in an incident I do not remember, on March 4th 1972 a Hovertravel SRN 6 capsized in rough seas while travelling between Ryde and Southsea resulting in five fatalities. Details are here Hovercraft capsize disaster off Hampshire coast recalled 50 years on





Brian

 

[Dan Randall]

Apparently, and in an incident I do not remember, on March 4th 1972 a Hovertravel SRN 6 capsized in rough seas while travelling between Ryde and Southsea resulting in five fatalities. Details are here Hovercraft capsize disaster off Hampshire coast recalled 50 years on

I remember that day well - I was 11 years old at the time and my dad had taken me to Swanage for the day on a British Rail excursion.

The weather, as one could imagine, was absolutely atrocious, with high winds and rain coming down like stair rods - we spent virtually the whole day alternating between walking round the block and sheltering/drying out in a seafront cafe/restaurant that was thankfully open (and doing a roaring trade), just killing time, before the coach back to Wareham station and our train home (the branch to Swanage having been closed a few months previously). The coach trip back to Wareham was rather subdued, the driver having announced the tragedy in The Solent earlier that day…

On arrival at Wareham station that evening, we had to wait for around 20-30 minutes for the train. By this time, it was dark and with no let-up in the weather and the temperature dropping, the first 10 minutes were even more miserable than our day at Swanage had been, that was, until we discovered (along with a great many others!), an open waiting room, with a coal fire roaring away!


Regards

Dan

 

[Peter Insole]

Sorry, I stuck the "like" on the post before reading the sad text about the tragedy. I was just looking at the pictures. The old Clapham museum was a favourite place of mine... and then the views of an SRN6 took me back to some very happy connections with Hoverlloyd's "Swift" and "Sure" at Sarfend and Margate!


An ancient piece of early artwork from the sixties!

Pete.

 

[readingtype]

Delicious colours here, and again very atmospheric. There is also a tantalising reflection of what seems to be a pannier tank - 94xx or 15xx perhaps? - on the tender. I guess Tim didn't turn a few degrees south after taking image 304 (the front view with the Hymek) and record this more humble creature in colour ... for one thing that would have been straight into the sunrise of course

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dan @Dan Randall for that rather sombre recollection. I've added it to the file as it's a first hand experience and such are quite rare beasts. Also Peter @Peter Insole , particularly for that lovely drawing. Also added to the file as data but not for reproduction elsewhere.

You could be quite correct about that reflection, @readingtype although I personally never saw a 15XX pannier tank at Southall. However the 57XX and 94XX versions were quite common, sadly many of them on their way to the scrap yards.

Only a single subject for today. It's appropriate as the A4 was Tim's favourite class of locomotive which may account for the significant number of photos although by 1965 LNER steam in London was a rare thing.

There was no information with these pictures of 60007, Sir Nigel Gresley. You’ll note it’s carrying a 61B Ferryhill shed plate. See: 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley (LNER 4498, LNER 600, LNER 7 & BR 60007). However, following the lead given by that reporting number of 1X36 I’ve established that the loco was on The Paddington Streamliner train of 23rd October 1965. See: The Railtour Files This was the first tour organised by the A4 Preservation Society raising money for the eventually successful purchase of their train engine. It ran from Manchester Exchange to Paddington and return to Manchester Piccadilly. The next question is where was it serviced? I don’t recognise the shed as Southall which would be the obvious choice but there’s an entry on Facebook (which I do not do so I’m working only from the headlines on Google) which indeed confirms that the loco was turned and serviced at Southall. This would make sense as Southall Shed was still active at the time. Indeed, I was regularly taking photos there in 1965 (so perhaps another occasion when I could have bumped in to Tim before I knew him) so the viewpoint is one with which I’m not familiar.

All in all a pleasing result based on initially very little information.















Brian

 

[Mike Walker]

Definitely Southall, the building in the background of the 6th photo is still in use.

 

[hrmspaul]

img328 Poss Hornsey 60007 Date NK copyright Final.jpg [Only quoting!]​

The SMBP tank is one of the class B wagons introduced in large numbers for the Air Ministry during WW2. It appears on my screen to the A5257, which would have been built in 1943 and later sold on to the SMBP. That company were very slow to modernise their fleet and this was still on their revenue use books in 1965. These have been written up in
Fidczuk, Peter. (1993) Air Ministry tank wagons part 2: Post war service. Modellers' Backtrack vol. 3 (part 2) pp 60 - 69.
Drawing - SMBP (ex AirMinistry) 14t class B tank,

Lionheart - Dapol have a very nice 7mm models of these tank wagons, in various guises.

Paul

SMBP pre nationalisation tank wagons

Various SMBP tank wagons upto the introduction of anchor mounting (which can be found in a separate collection). 444 and have their own detailed collections.

paulbartlett.zenfolio.com

 

[hrmspaul]

Definitely Southall, the building in the background of the 6th photo is still in use.

img358 60007 31B shedplate 1X36 see 23 Oct 65 Location NK copyright Final.jpg​

The bunded storage tanks are interesting. Do we know when these were installed? I remember OOU GWR design "flying bananas" stored in Southall, very noticeable from passing trains in their red and cream BR livery, Do the tanks date back to the period of their introduction?

Paul