Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Dog Star]

For those in literary circles Covent Garden Records is 84 Charing Cross Road.

And from where I bought books whilst at university.

Reminds me that I went to see the play, based on the book, at a Malvern Festival, probably in the early 80s.

Now Dave, can you tell us when the story of Marks & Co appeared in Reader's Digest?

Rgds, Graham

 

[Pete_S]

They are on the Charing Cross Road at Cambridge Circus. The date will be between February 1990 and 1996 as Covent Garden Records (shop behind bus stop D) closed in 1995.

For those in literary circles Covent Garden Records is 84 Charing Cross Road. Today it is a fast food restaurant.

The Marquee Club is visible on the left - it moved there from Wardour St in 1988 & closed in 1996. Above it is a banner reading '35'.
The club's 25th anniversary was 1983 (I saw a re-formed Ten Years After there at the Wardour Street location), so I'll punt 1993 as a possible date.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dave @Yorkshire Dave , Graham @Dog Star and @Pete_S for pinning down a precise location with such personal memories. I didn't place it but certainly remember The Marquee Club with affection.

Looking rather the worse for wear is London Transport Routemaster RM2161, Reg CUV161C of March 1965 on Route 19 to Clapham Junction on an unknown date in the immediate vicinity of Oxford Street. Note the Grade 2 listed pub “The Tottenham” in the background, the only pub on Oxford Street and renamed The Flying Horse in 2015. A few years previously no bus would have been allowed out on the road in this condition by the garage foreman and I suggest it reflects a gradual lowering of standards. As a certain "Top Gear" presenter said a few years ago... "would you let your daughter out looking like that?"



No 171 is 4-4-0 Slieve Gullion, now owned by the RPSI but originally GNR(I). It was built by Beyer Peacock in 1913. The location, based on photos in the RPSI website, is probably Portrush. The date of these photos is unknown but the headboard is clearly for the Portrush Flyer which I believe has been operated annually by the RPSI since 1973. For further information about the loco see No.171 "Slieve Gullion" and for historical photos of the train see A History - Portrush Flyer - Whitehead Railway Museum







This is Standard Class 5 4-6-0 73050 probably on the NVR although the date is unknown. Information about the loco history and preservation is here: 73050



I photographed this very engine at Newton Heath on the day of the Fifteen Guinea Special, so here it is...



I considered whether I should include this one as we are rather going off piste but among many others I reckon this is of fair interest as it demonstrates the street furniture and dress of the time. It's Tottenham Court Road and probably around the mid 1980s.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I considered whether I should include this one as we are rather going off piste but among many others I reckon this is of fair interest as it demonstrates the street furniture and dress of the time. It's Tottenham Court Road and probably around the mid 1980s.

Yes - please include this type of photo as they record scenes which have disappeared over the last 30 years or so.

This was taken from the NE corner of St Giles Circus at the bottom of Tottenham Court Road. St Giles Circus is the junction of Tottenham Court Road, Oxford Street, New Oxford Street and Charing Cross Road. Behind the photographer and to the left is the Dominion Theatre. To the left and out of sight on the opposite side of New Oxford Street is Centre Point. The buildings in the background and to the right got swept away with the building of the Elizabeth Line and have been replaced with modern structures. The only remaining original feature is the tube station entrance.

Behind the high hand telephone kiosks there appears to be a Grey-Green double decker coming up Charing Cross Road which starts to place the photo around the mid-1990s commensurate with the earlier photos at Cambridge Circus.

Also note on the far right one of the Evening Standard's orange hazard liveried Leyland DAF Convoy series 400 vans (1984-1993) - once a common sight around the London area.

Looking rather the worse for wear is London Transport Routemaster RM2161, Reg CUV161C of March 1965 on Route 19 to Clapham Junction on an unknown date in the immediate vicinity of Oxford Street. Note the Grade 2 listed pub “The Tottenham” in the background, the only pub on Oxford Street and renamed The Flying Horse in 2015. A few years previously no bus would have been allowed out on the road in this condition by the garage foreman and I suggest it reflects a gradual lowering of standards. As a certain "Top Gear" presenter said a few years ago... "would you let your daughter out looking like that?"

This is taken from the top of Charing Cross Road looking north with the original water feature outside Centre Point to the right. The Tottenham pub (now the Flying Horse) is on Oxford Street with New Oxford Street to the right out of view. The box junction in front is for Sutton Row on the left and the diversion of Oxford Street/New Oxford Street around Centre Point and was built at the same time during 1963-66.

Again the buildings to the immediate left and the Centre Point water feature on the right were swept away with the construction of the Elizabeth Line.

 

[oldravendale]

A surfeit of riches from you there, Dave @Yorkshire Dave . (Were you ever a London cab driver? I actually know the answer to that one. I used to drive in London's West End and Docklands a great deal through the 1960s to the late 1980s but my memories of the specifics are hazy to say the least). Thank you yet again for such detail. I'll certainly not flood these pages with tourist photos of London but the occasional one will pop up.

The first of this pair is London Transport Routemaster RM346, WLT346, of July 1960 on an unknown date and location and on the route 19 to Clapham Junction. However, in the background a telephone number of 01 251 is visible. This is the Clerkenwell exchange and the 01 became 071 in May 1990 so this photo is likely to have been taken in the 1980s and within the Clerkenwell exchange area. Furthermore there’s another bus in the background, KYV410X which is London Transport T410 which was itself introduced in January 1982 so we have an approximate ten year window for the date.



Another Routemaster, RM 970, Reg WLT970 of November 1961 on route 19 but to Finsbury Park Station so probably travelling in the opposite direction to the bus in the photo above. It’s surmise on my part but, as both slides were in the same box I suggest they were taken in approximately the same area and on the same day, even though that date is not known.



Class 45 Diesel 45122 which was in the olden days D11 at an unknown location but possibly Loughborough Midland in March 1987 when it must have been on one of its very last duties. It was introduced somewhat surprisingly to Camden on 1st October 1960 but a week later had moved to Derby. At the time it was in all over green with a broad white band along the lower body sides. By the end of December 1962 it had small yellow panels although remained in green. It’s recorded as repainted blue with full yellow cab front by August 1968.

The loco was allocated very widely in the North East and Midlands before finally reaching Toton in May 1973 where it was withdrawn in April 1987 going to MC Metals, Springburn where it was scrapped in February 1994.

Edit: Cannot be Loughborough - note OHLE



To follow are quite a few photos taken in Spain. There is little detail published on line about the RENFE motive power so I’ve cobbled together what I can from the web. Would anyone with a knowledge of Spanish railways please comment to provide additional information or to correct anything here which is erroneous.

To start with a couple of photos of Lerida Depot in July 1966.





Brian

 

[readingtype]

To follow are quite a few photos taken in Spain.

Lovely! Medium format (why are all photos not square?) and masses of atmosphere. Not that the London photos lacked any! Looking forward to these, in (even) greater ignorance than when on home ground.

Ben

 

[Arun Sharma]

Regarding RMs 346 and 970. They both have front adverts for "Cats" and "Starlight Express" so that should allow some fine tuning of dates. The buses also been sectorised into regions - note the wording over the nearside lower deck first side window i.e., it was after the de facto [if not de jure] end of London Transport. Another oddity is that both have been modified from their as-built appearance. Both have received the low height upper deck heating radiator and both have also received new wings - in that they no longer have brake cooling grilles but 346 has the earlier nearside wing with an indented area showing where such a grille might have been placed. RM 970 has a smooth faced nearside front wing. Their spotlight positions are also different -RM970 has received a much later replacement wing as that lamp position [without semi-circular cutout] was very much intially associated with RMs numbered above RM2000 - though after overhaul they could have appeared on any bus.

Afternote: Starlight Express ran in London from March 1984 to January 2002. Cats ran in London from May 1981 to May 2002. So a long period of overlap but the pic must have been taken after March 1984.

 

[40057]

Regarding RMs 346 and 970. They both have front adverts for "Cats" and "Starlight Express" so that should allow some fine tuning of dates. The buses also been sectorised into regions - note the wording over the nearside lower deck first side window i.e., it was after the de facto [if not de jure] end of London Transport. Another oddity is that both have been modified from their as-built appearance. Both have received the low height upper deck heating radiator and both have also received new wings - in that they no longer have brake cooling grilles but 346 has the earlier nearside wing with an indented area showing where such a grille might have been placed. RM 970 has a smooth faced nearside front wing. Their spotlight positions are also different -RM970 has received a much later replacement wing as that lamp position [without semi-circular cutout] was very much intially associated with RMs numbered above RM2000 - though after overhaul they could have appeared on any bus.

Afternote: Starlight Express ran in London from March 1984 to January 2002. Cats ran in London from May 1981 to May 2002. So a long period of overlap but the pic must have been taken after March 1984.

The Starlight Express advert on both buses appears to read ‘6th hit year’. Assuming the show was considered a ‘hit’ from day one, and if the adverts are up-to-date, the photos are 1990.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The first of this pair is London Transport Routemaster RM346, WLT346, of July 1960 on an unknown date and location and on the route 19 to Clapham Junction. However, in the background a telephone number of 01 251 is visible. This is the Clerkenwell exchange and the 01 became 071 in May 1990 so this photo is likely to have been taken in the 1980s and within the Clerkenwell exchange area. Furthermore there’s another bus in the background, KYV410X which is London Transport T410 which was itself introduced in January 1982 so we have an approximate ten year window for the date.

The location is providing elusive as here we have two routes, 19 and D6. However, when you research these two bus routes their paths never crossed.

Route 19 at this date (1989/1990) was Finsbury Park to Clapham Junction and D6 was from Hackney Mare Street to the Isle of Dogs. D6 was a new route introduced in 1989 using Leyland Titans which we see in the photo.

A bit of history! The original route 106 ran from Finsbury Park to the Isle of Dogs using Leyland Titans and in 1989 the lower portion of this route from Hackney Mare Street to the Isle of Dogs was replaced by route D6. As a result 'new' route 106 terminated at Mile End Gate (Mon-Sat) and Poplar on (Sun). 'New' routes 106 and D6 combined make up the original route 106.

What is going on here? We need to remember the route 106 history. The only section where routes 19 and 106 meet is a short stretch of Blackstone Road between Brownswood Road and Seven Sisters Road. It is conceivable therefore the Leyland Titan is actually on route 106 but did not change the rear blind from D6 to 106. My only conclusion is this is Blackstone road however I cannot categorically confirm this as there has been so much building work since the photo (post 1989) and Google street view.

Another Routemaster, RM 970, Reg WLT970 of November 1961 on route 19 but to Finsbury Park Station so probably travelling in the opposite direction to the bus in the photo above. It’s surmise on my part but, as both slides were in the same box I suggest they were taken in approximately the same area and on the same day, even though that date is not known.

This is St Giles Circus looking west towards Oxford Street. Charing Cross Road on the left, Tottenham Court Road on the right and New Oxford Street behind the photographer. The buildings in the left behind the RM were torn down as part the of Elizabeth Line construction.

And the photo was taken in the morning as we are facing West - early morning judging by the lighting and length of the shadows.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Class 45 Diesel 45122 which was in the olden days D11 at an unknown location but possibly Loughborough Midland in March 1987 when it must have been on one of its very last duties. It was introduced somewhat surprisingly to Camden on 1st October 1960 but a week later had moved to Derby. At the time it was in all over green with a broad white band along the lower body sides. By the end of December 1962 it had small yellow panels although remained in green. It’s recorded as repainted blue with full yellow cab front by August 1968.

The loco was allocated very widely in the North East and Midlands before finally reaching Toton in May 1973 where it was withdrawn in April 1987 going to MC Metals, Springburn where it was scrapped in February 1994.

It cannot be Loughborough as there is OHLE. For March 1987 we are either south of Bedford on the MML or north of Weaver Junction on the WCML.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for your enthusiasm for the upcoming set of pictures, Ben @readingtype . I suspect detailing these will be the blind leading the blind.

Arun @Arun Sharma , @40057 and Dave @Yorkshire Dave with some fantastic detail about the routes. There is some remarkable detail coming out of these bus photos including some refinement of the dates. I truly had no understanding of the differences between the RMs (except, perhaps, for the GreenLine ones). There are hundreds of RM photos here but I'll not be flooding these posts with them, only a few of the best, but if there's a wish for a new bus thread, and subject to the agreement of the Mods, I'll be happy to start one off. For a forum about model railways that may be a step too far although I recognise the comments Dave has made from time to time about the social and scenic background which can be a good reason for the occasional non railway photo.

And then D'oh! I'll put on the hair shirt for failing to pick up the OHLE in that photo of the 45, Dave. Thank you for your advice.

Back to Spain we go.

An impressive photo for sure but I have no description or loco number with which to work. I suspect it’s possibly a pacific but I may just be making that up! The location is again Lerida MPD and the date July 1966.



I read the loco number as 230-2117 and it’s on a Tarragone to Lerida local train in July 1966. Apart from being a 4-6-0 (in our terms!) I can find little more about this loco.



I believe this is probably a 141 but again have no firm details although it’s in Lerida Station in July 1966. However see Spanish Steam Locomotives which may offer some enlightenment.



A Lerida-Barcelona train leaving Lerida in July 1966. I have no hope of identifying this but possibly a 2-8-2.



Garratt 462-0402 at Tarragona in July 1966. See loco-info.com - Central de Aragón No. 101 to 106 One similar immediately behind and behind that probably a 282 or 2-8-2 + 2-8-2 in our parlance.



Brian

 

[hrmspaul]

I read the loco number as 230-2117 and it’s on a Tarragone to Lerida local train in July 1966.

As a teenager I photographed a very similar locomotive at Tarragona awaiting a departure with a very light train.

Spanish Railway in 1966 | 230-2033 Hanomag 1900 @ Tarragona 66-08 � Paul Bartlett [1w]

The caption is wrong. It has been pointed out that 230-2033 started life as Norte 1903 and was built by Hanomag (3454/1900) in Germany. There were twenty eight such locomotives, eighteen built by Hanomag and ten by Borsig.

PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com

Spanish Railway in 1966 | 230-2033 Hanomag 1900 @ Tarragona 66-08 � Paul Bartlett [2w]

The caption is wrong. It has been pointed out that 230-2033 started life as Norte 1903 and was built by Hanomag (3454/1900) in Germany. There were twenty eight such locomotives, eighteen built by Hanomag and ten by Borsig.

PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com

In 2013 someone signing as EddieB pointed out, on RMWeb, that the caption is wrong. It has been pointed out that 230-2033 started life as Norte 1903 and was built by Hanomag (3454/1900) in Germany. There were twenty eight such locomotives, eighteen built by Hanomag and ten by Borsig. Your photo may well be one of these, but I am not saying it definately is.

With my personal interests the coach on this train was even more interesting, appeared to be Wild West!
Spanish Railway in 1966 | 4 wheel coach @ Salou 66-08 � Paul Bartlett w

Paul

Spanish Railway in 1966

A holiday at Salou in August 1966 permitted some railway photography. The mainline from Tarragona avoided Salou, but had a gradient, so the heavy freights, usually hauled by Garratts, went along the more easily graded coast line. A narrow gauge line ran from Reus to Salou, passing immediately...

paulbartlett.zenfolio.com

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Paul @hrmspaul for the additional info. It demonstrates that there is more data available - I just don't know where to find it. (BTW, if you'd like me to have a look at improving one of those "blue" photos for you I'll be happy to have a go. It looks as though the yellow dye has...well...died. There can be no guarantees. If you're interested just send me a copy of the original scan attached to a PM but I fully understand if that's not of interest to you).

Lerida Station and 140-2539 on a train of tank wagons in July 1966. Regrettably I have no other detail.



This is Lerida MPD in July 1966 with 230-2014. No other details are known.



I believe this loco to be 230-2080 at Lerida MPD in July 1966. There’s a Transport Treasury photo in September 1966 at Lerida at The Transport Library | RENFE Spanish Railways Steam Locomotive 232 0201 230 2080 at Lerida in 1966 - 21/09/1966 - Henry Finch



Lerida MPD and 141F2414 in July 1966. Another of the class, 141F2348 was the last steam loco operating in Spain and was withdrawn in 1975. See loco-info.com - Spanish State Railways No. 141.2101 to 2125 and 141.2201 to 2417



I believe this to be 040-2525 although the number is obscured. It is at Lerida MPD in July 1966 but there are no other details.



Brian

 

[Mullie]

Finally caught up with this thread, been going through it for some months. A fascinating set of photos, looking forward to more.

Thanks for posting.

Martyn

 

[mickoo]

It cannot be Loughborough as there is OHLE. For March 1987 we are either south of Bedford on the MML or north of Weaver Junction on the WCML.

Could be ECML south of Peterborough as photo is Mar 87, Huntingdon was live in 86 but I', inclined to head over to MML to be honest though the location doesn't grab me as anywhere I know....or feel I should know.....

Either way it's heading north and by the look of the running lines, on the down slow on a 2+2 set up, ECML is 1+2+1 I think from Holloway right up to Peterborough.

 

[oldravendale]

Martin @Mullie . I'm glad you are enjoying these photos. That, after all, is what it's all about.

Once again, Mick @mickoo I'm in your debt. There's insufficient evidence in that photo to provide a positive ID of the location but your comments are really helpful in narrowing the possibilities.

Very little to go on here but I think this is possibly a 141F. It is at Lerida MPD in July 1966 but I have no other details.



Another possible 141F again at Lerida shed in July 1966 but no other details.



240-2977 at Lerida MPD in July 1966 but no more information is available.



Lerida shed again and 230-2134 in July 1966. The only info I could find about this class was that they were built between 1909 and 1911.



240-2677 at Lerida MPD in July 1966. No other details are available.



Lerida MPD and 141F2410 in July 1966. These locos were built between 1952 and 1960. See loco-info.com - Spanish State Railways No. 141.2101 to 2125 and 141.2201 to 2417



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Continuing a Spanish sojourn...

This is an 0-8-0 confirmed by the part of the number plate which can be deciphered – 040 – but the loco number is obscured. It’s at Lerida MPD in July 1966.



Lerida Depot and 140 2101 in July 1966. Regrettably I have no other details.



I don’t stand a chance of identifying this loco. I believe it’s probably a 4-6-0 (or 230) and is in Lerida shed yard in July 1966.



This is a 4-6-0 confirmed as 230-2113 but there’s nothing I could find on line about this particular loco. Again it’s at Lerida in July 1966.



Finally at Lerida MPD in July 1966 is 140-2105.



And now it's back to Blighty for the next series of photos.

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Could be ECML south of Peterborough as photo is Mar 87, Huntingdon was live in 86 but I', inclined to head over to MML to be honest though the location doesn't grab me as anywhere I know....or feel I should know.....

Either way it's heading north and by the look of the running lines, on the down slow on a 2+2 set up, ECML is 1+2+1 I think from Holloway right up to Peterborough.

Yes, heading north ECML is 1+2+1 (down slow, down fast, up fast, up slow), MML is 2+2 (down fast, up fast, down slow, up slow) as is WCML.
Given that we have seen photos from Elstree (MML), Preston (WCML) and Hornsey (ECML) we could be in any of these locations in March 1987.

Although, it is not anywhere I recognise on the MML and my feeling is this could be the approach to Preston as with the class 40. The vehicle behind the class 45 looks like a HEA 45 tonne coal hopper. Also at this date, March 1987, 45 122 is a month away from withdrawal in April 1987 and could have been used for any service.


The north end of Cricklewood has 6 tracks (2+2+2 down goods, up goods, down fast, up fast, down slow and up slow) and it's possible the photographer is on the southbound slow platform hence the large gap in front where the island platform is. We could be seeing the 45 on the down goods lines with the fast pair of lines in front. However, there are anomalies which rules this out - the goods lines are not electrified and the siding behind is electrified.

Returning to the ECML it could be immediately south of Hornsey as the electrified siding could be the north exit from Ferme Park sidings (as there is a tower lamp mast present) with the pair of lines in the foreground being the up and down fast. The line immediately behind being the down slow and the 45 is on the line which loops behind the platform. However, I would rule this out as class 45s were extremely rare on the ECML.

 

[40057]

Yes, heading north ECML is 1+2+1 (down slow, down fast, up fast, up slow), MML is 2+2 (down fast, up fast, down slow, up slow) as is WCML.
Given that we have seen photos from Elstree (MML), Preston (WCML) and Hornsey (ECML) we could be in any of these locations in March 1987.

Although, it is not anywhere I recognise on the MML and my feeling is this could be the approach to Preston as with the class 40. The vehicle behind the class 45 looks like a HEA 45 tonne coal hopper. Also at this date, March 1987, 45 122 is a month away from withdrawal in April 1987 and could have been used for any service.


The north end of Cricklewood has 6 tracks (2+2+2 down goods, up goods, down fast, up fast, down slow and up slow) and it's possible the photographer is on the southbound slow platform hence the large gap in front where the island platform is. We could be seeing the 45 on the down goods lines with the fast pair of lines in front. However, there are anomalies which rules this out - the goods lines are not electrified and the siding behind is electrified.

Returning to the ECML it could be immediately south of Hornsey as the electrified siding could be the north exit from Ferme Park sidings (as there is a tower lamp mast present) with the pair of lines in the foreground being the up and down fast. The line immediately behind being the down slow and the 45 is on the line which loops behind the platform. However, I would rule this out as class 45s were extremely rare on the ECML.

I’m looking at the rubble in the foreground and thinking it looks like chalk. If it is chalk, that’s quite geographically restrictive. Could the 45 be in East Anglia, say Cambridge or Ipswich? They did visit on freights via March.

Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your further details about the possible location of that photo of the Class 45, Dave @Yorkshire Dave . I guess we'll never know but it points us towards some further options. As for Class 45s being rare on the ECML please see below... I have to accept, though, that it's more than two decades before Tim's photo so probably has no relevance to this discussion at all.



Thanks for yours about the possible ground too, Martin @40057 . There are some other alternatives for chalk, of course, and again I suspect it offers options but no more than options.

Now to pictures in the UK and for quite a few upcoming posts steam in the declining years. Tim spent a lot of time at Waterloo and on the Southern as it was the final steam in London but he also travelled a good deal. He never really got to grips with colour film in the same way he had so successfully with black and white but that's not to say that there are no stunning images upcoming and of interest.

Class U 2-6-0 31639 and Class N 2-6-0 31411 at an unknown location with the Wilts and Hants rail tour of 3rd April 1966. 31639 was allocated to Guildford in December 1963, withdrawn in June 1966 and scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in September the same year. 31411 was also allocated to Guildford but in January 1965, being withdrawn week ending 24th April 1966, so very shortly after operating this train. It also went to Cashmore’s, Newport and was scrapped in September 1966. (BR Database)





It’s rather difficult to put any info to this photo. I believe the loco is 35028 Clan Line but the date is not known. The absence of a smokebox numberplate and shed plate suggest it's some time towards the end of steam on the Southern and may help to date the photo if my identification of the loco is correct. Next to it is what I understand to be a 4-SUB unit, 4742 which was probably built in the early 1950s. The Merchant Navy was at Stewarts Lane from April 1950 right through to September 1964 when it moved to Weymouth Radipole, then to Nine Elms in April 1967 where it was withdrawn in July the same year. As we know this loco has had a very successful career in preservation and details are here:
35028 Clan Line

As for the 4 SUB there appears to be very little information available and I don’t even have a withdrawal date. The small yellow warning panel may also give some indication of date.

Could this be at Waterloo? If so it's a view I don't recognise.

Edit: Not 35028. This is 35008 Orient Line at Vauxhall. It is hauling the Farewell to Southern Steam Railtour on 2nd July 1967



Rebuilt Battle of Britain 34056 Croydon at Waterloo but regrettably I have no date. However, looking at allocations after December 1960 when it was rebuilt it was at Exmouth Junction (where it had been since December 1954 in original condition), moving to Salisbury in November 1963 where it was withdrawn in May 1967. There's no shed plate, though, which puts the photo towards the end of steam on the Southern and I'll guess that the photo is dated at some time between 1963 and 1967. It then went to Cashmore’s, Newport and was broken up during September the same year. The SLS noted it in store at Salisbury in August 1967. (BR Database). Small yellow panel EMU in the background.



Brian