Finescale - of a sort?!

simond

Western Thunderer
Were i to choose a wheel material, I guess I would start with cast iron, but given there is a very small likelihood of a market that would support the creation of maters for such a contrivance, I’d then have to think about it a bit…

I suppose the next question is, “whatever the material, how are you going to turn it?”. Fair point. They’re quite large.

and what are the axles? Do we have drawings?

mmmm.

the technology exists, but…
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Thank you Simon, it is indeed a bit of a problem! Up until now I have managed not to burden anyone else with pleas for assistance, but these wheels in particular are going to be an exception.

I have an experienced model engineer friend who lives locally, (barely a ten minute walk away) and he has offered help with the machining. He too felt that grey iron was preferable over any other material - and I rather churlishly agreed that it would "look" right into the bargain! He also suggested that I have a look at Kennions website for anything that might be practical for turning to the required maximum of 5" (over flange) diameter. I quite agreed with his reasoning that it didn't matter what the centres were like, even whether they were of a conventionally spoked design - as for my purposes they could readily be disguised with a hard filler!

I went ahead and searched, including Reeves and all sorts of other loco parts suppliers and builders, but the trouble turns out to be that everything available in the right diameter was cast with only enough metal for turning down to gauge "Standard" in tread width/flange profile. Our wheels are a very close match for 7 1/4" (Narrow Gauge) profile, with an absolute minimum of 3/4 inch clear tread width required to match our other wheelsets and existing flangeways!

So far I have found nothing remotely appropriate available out there!

There is however one solitary company that offers a bespoke CNC wheel machining service. It produces all in EN8 bright mild steel. I approached them with an enquiry, and fairly promptly received a quotation. While I am quite sure that the price was an entirely fair one - and indeed I might be convinced that in the overall, grand scheme of things, is small change by comparison with many "essentials" in our particular hobby... but £380 in a single hit (including VAT and delivery) is just too far to stretch my pension allowance at any time - let alone within a month of accepting the current quotation!

Besides, my wife's "Non" was clearly spoken in full blown, unequivocal; "Don't you dare" mode; so I would be an even greater fool to challenge that!

The only other business that advertises 5" diameter 7 1/4 NG profile, CNC milled disc wheels in EN1, has obviously been badly bitten in the past - and emphatically refuses to do bespoke in less than minimum quantities of two dozen!

However, he does offer plain, "off the shelf" ones of that size at £20 each (including the VAT!), and I am happily reassured that they are much more affordable... (this time the good lady guardian of accounts and other wellbeing went "Mmm", accompanied by a familiar slight turn of the head and raised eyebrow of the "Oh well, that's still too much for my liking - but I suppose you will go ahead and buy it anyway")!

Unfortunately, the latter fine gentleman declared that he has cleared all his remaining stock... due to being otherwise occupied at present, and was politely vague about when he might produce a new run.

The big worry for me now is that for whatever reason, good or bad, he might not... and that would leave me completely scuppered... unless in the unlikely event that someone just so happens to have already purchased some - and don't want them any more... and that by pure luck I chance upon the advertisement?!

I would really like to be able to trust everyone in our business and hobby, and am sure most are entirely worthy, but I'm painfully well aware of how easy it is to say "yes" and make all sorts of promises - only to utterly fail in fulfilling them. I have caused way too many decent, good hearted people completely inexcusable and totally unnecessary anguish over so many years, so I clearly don't deserve, nor expect anything better of anyone else.

Pete.
 

Giles

Western Thunderer
EN8 is really the job, but of course it is most important for locos and stock that are going to do miles and miles...... when i built my 10 1/4 Bagnall, I built her with decent cast iron wheels, but they wore badly after 1 or 2 seasons and had to be fitted with tyres (EN8) which have lasted more than twenty years passenger hauling.
For this, any steel is going to be an improvement, and four slices off a billet shouldn't be pricey, and would serve better than cast iron.
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
The other factor to consider of course is the RAIL - and alumin(i)um at that.

Giles - I wonder how your Bagnall's cast iron and EN8 wheels might have fared on aluminium rail?
Maybe the cast iron ones would have been fine - but on the other hand, it is possible that the soft rail head would collect ingrained abrasive particles e.g. sand, and cause even faster wheel wear.

If cast iron (or even cast steel) would be preferred, as if by serendipity I was only discussing yesterday with two retired engineers (who do this kind of big scale narrow gauge stuff) options for repairing the cracked spoke of a cast steel track idler wheel on my WW2 American namesake below.
I spoke about specialist welding repair (pre-heating etc), they said:
'Or build it up 2% with body filler to counteract shrinkage and take it up the road to -

East Coast Casting | A Historical Foundry In Norfolk

So that presents an option of cast iron or steel, at quite possibly a very sensible price from their experience if you provide the pattern
And whilst you cannot turn bar stock you can turn one of the existing wheels into a pretty mean pattern using your eclectic selection of skills with whacky materials.
Worth a quick phone call?

What a conundrum - think I'll stick with 7mm and full size :))

Oh - is that a China Clay wagon sheet? :rolleyes:
IMG_5394.JPG
 

Mike W

Western Thunderer
Peter has entertained a great many of us with this project. There have been over 900 replies and 92,000 views over nine years. Surely the collective could fund a set of wheels, if somebody can get over the logistics of actually doing that?
I suspect that waiting for Peter's incredible way around a problem using just scrap, a kitchen knife and a needle file is half the interest, but it would be a small token of our respect and thanks?
Mike
 

Giles

Western Thunderer
Aluminium rail can be a b*****r - you have to remember that aluminium oxide is an excellent (and commonly used) abrasive. We had one member who brought one of his large Pacifics for a season or two, and found to his horror that he completely wore out his driving wheels, to the point of needing re-tyring (a large and expensive job). We had a look, a noted that he had fitted the loco with aluminium brake blocks, instead of the usual cast iron. These were promptly thrown away and replaced with the proper cast iron ones (fettled). But in this instance, this issue is more that in any event, machining will be required, and it's easier to machine a steel blank than a casting, by and large.....

Mike - I'm happy to chip in!
 

GrahamMc

Western Thunderer
OK, I'll admit that I don't know what I'm talking about but instead of trying to make a wheel would it be possible to find steel tube that could be cut to size and fitted over the plastic? You'd need to cover the flange with steel. You can get 4 off 2mm by 170mm laser cut mild steel discs on ebay for £6.75 each including postage, no hole in the middle but it might give you some ideas.
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Oh gosh, what a lot to think about! Thank you so much to everyone for your kind generosity, thoughts, suggestions and encouragements.

I was going to go straight into a follow-up with this saga today, but I think I am going to have to take a few moments to get my breath back?!

Pete.
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
I'm a great fan of hard nylon and am sure it is a good companion for your aluminium rail - any way of recovering the wheels or has the axle fastening put you off?
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Thank you all so very much again!

The nylon wagon and carriage wheels are indeed a godsend Tony, and although the ride is perhaps a little too smooth and quiet, (not nearly enough dum-de-dum over the rail joints) they do appear to be holding up to the rigours very satisfactorily.... There is also an additional benefit with them in that they are much kinder on the curvature and the vulnerable bits of the (hard won!) points and crossings!

Polypropylene driving wheels are much the same in respect of the latter, but are however a totally different ballgame when it comes to performance and potential longevity. What I will admit though; is that if it were not for the shocking discovery that the wheel diameters were unequal, and thus it would seem the primary cause of the problem, I would otherwise be content to leave things as they are for fair while longer!

I will confess that after making the discoveries and receiving the quotation mentioned in the earlier post I had worked myself up into a bit of a state over it, but thanks to all your gentle kindness and encouragements that, Simon, Giles, Tony, Mike, Graham and James have so generously given, I am feeling much less overwhelmed about it all. The thoughts that there are still some interesting options available, and as a result, being generally a bit more relaxed, I think I can better face being patient now... and prepared to wait to see if the 5" diameter wheels do become available again!

Pete.
 

ovener

Western Thunderer
Peter, sorry to read of your trials and tribulations over this. I'm sure you will overcome it as you have everything else, with your wonderful skill, humour and dogged determination. You have achieved the most amazing thing and brought so much joy to many; the look on the children's (and adults) faces riding your railway are such a pleasure to see. Good luck with whatever you decide!
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
Pete - a nice little article on the Horwich critters in September's Railway Bylines, 7 photos most new to me.
Only the cost of a wheel casting..........:rolleyes:
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
From circa 1988 to 2010 we would walk past that long garden on the footpath just over the hedge when regularly visiting friends.
The garage was up near the house with the TB visible inside.
Never saw it working - thinking back its a wonder I never knocked on the door!
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Apologies for going partially off-grid for the last few days, but Mrs I and self had become a bit stir crazy back home in West Suffolk... so we headed East! So far in fact that if we attempt travelling just a few yards further in that direction there would be a big splash!

To date, the weather has continued to be kind, so we have been out and about with some of the grandchildren... generally sort of doing grandchild oriented activities (!) Today however, we find ourselves confined to barracks under frequent cloud bursts, so the internet is taking a pounding!

Earlier, I was granted one day for grandad inspiration purposes though:

ySAM_gr2408.JPGySAM_gr2410.JPGySAM_gr2427.JPGySAM_gr2432.JPGySAM_gr2443.JPGySAM_gr2466.JPG

What a perfectly spot on and topical reply James, and thanks for that reminder link! By the way; on our trip, the young Mr.T didn't like riding the open top deck of Bournemouth trolleybus 202 one bit - and became a bit of a grump. He really did struggle to maintain his determinedly sullen composure though when it was mentioned that grandma was terribly worried what could happen if grandad ever does get round to installing similar overhead!

Thanks too for the heads up Tony. I hope to be able to sneakily swerve away from my "minders" and have a look for a copy when I get dragged down (ahem!) into old Lowestoft town later this afternoon!

Pete.
 
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